Also, seriously: "If you want to upload, disregard their feelings, and blame it on me." "I can't believe on the topic of uploading you disregarded my feelings and blamed it on me." You should delete this entire embarrassing comment thread starting with and including my reply to Electra. It deteriorates the state of humanity by existing. The world is poorer for it. A discussion about a glass of spilled milk would have more merit in the long term.

`Peyo` That's a bit reductive. But yeah I do think the whole thing is weird, that's why I'd like a straight up statement of just what the goal of the site is, the so-called "Spirit of the site." But also, keep in mind this whole thing stems from a comment I made to someone who was saying they had meant to turn on uploads and hadn't, which resulted in me having the choice to either not contribute or use the app. If the topic is going to hurt your feelings, let's by all means drop it. It's not even a necessary discussion. It's just something that happened because the way things are set up that's what's going to happen. Repeatedly. Because the function's been obfuscated. So be it!

`Peyo` There's no need for a compromise. Just make the statement "This site is for control-freak weirdos who fear unlimited expression to have a closed environment they can throw their weight around in by forcing people to use a java app for art so they can spend their time mastering the app to feel good about themselves, you know, like the oekaki community" and you're golden! People like me can take one look at it and go "Oh screw that" and so much frustration is avoided. It's really easy! I'm not trying to push you over, I'm saying state your standards and stick with them, put them out there, save everyone some time.

`Peyo` But what I was saying on this issue is, for the time, having uploads stuck in this bizarre limbo of... 1. Being off by default with no option to have them on by default. 2. Being hidden from new users behind a button. 3. Being hidden from new users behind a button UNRELATED to uploading anything. Is only going to result in one thing which is people making games where they'd like to have uploads but they forgot to turn them on, so they didn't get uploads. That's my only point, going off the very case of this strip which saw someone forgetting to turn on uploads, resulting in someone doing drawings in the java app when they didn't want to. Any solution proposed for this after the fact is, by definition, the hoop jumping I was talking about, and was engineered by the bizarre setup. That's why I say it would be best if people just owned up to what they were REALLY going for with a site instead of using some overly simplistic representation of it, which results in people later on shaking their heads and wandering away. Such as happened with both Drawception and PanelJam. And I am sure other sites as well just I don't have the patience to get around much. Don't be another sequel: Express yourself.

`Peyo` Uploading as a paid donation based feature: Sure, great idea! But when you say "anytime" are you saying even if someone doesn't want uploads to their strip? I'm not comfortable with the idea of people being unable to stop others from uploading to their strips because I don't see the benefit outside some kind of power trip. In fact with a lot of these issues I feel like there's a lot going on beneath the surface I just don't perceive. In fact if I had one wish for you or other site creators it would be simple: Simply write out what it is you want to achieve with your site, specifically, and put it out there for others to clearly read and understand. But MEAN it. Don't fluff it or finesse it, mean it, and stand behind it with actions. All this vague fan-dancing about finding equitable solutions is a game unto itself and it's a game people like me have no interest in playing. I have a simple desire: I want to participate in art with other artists of my choosing, in an environment as free from inconvenience, as free from sub-culture boot licking and as free from hoop-jumping as possible. The beauty of a free environment is if others do want to place limits on their experience, they can, but they simply can't drag others into their experience. So I get very put out with the whole veneer of "I'm just trying to run a simple site for fun" kind of approach people have, no you're not. You have a complex and specific idea of what you want, and you should own up to it and state it, and stop pretending its simple. If it was simple, everything would be geared toward simplicity, not obscurity and mystery. All that said, any feature you want to have for people that is determined by a paywall or donation is fine and goes toward running a site the way you want it run and has my unabashed free market approval, for the zero sum that's worth. (more next post)

`Peyo` I'm not going do that! The reason I don't upload to people's strips without them having upload enabled, is because I respect people's limits and standards, and don't want to risk doing something to their strip they don't want done. It's not a fear of people getting mad at me, it's the wish not to intrude on their personal vision. So I'm going to do it the way I do it now. If somebody doesn't have upload enabled, I'm not going to use a special ability to have my way with their stuff.

`Peyo` Uploads on PanelJam was what caused me to try and give money to JamDaddy to try and buy premium and I kept running into problems with their credit card processing (Apparently the server handling it went down.) It was horrible frustrating. About uploading and having people get mad, on here, no, because I wouldn't ever upload unless explicitly invited (By the game being set to Uploads on) or when finishing off old games that had been left to rot. You and Pax went on quite a bit about the "spirit of the site" which I assume is a Norman Greenbaum song which only you two are privy to so I've always just assumed whatever the spirit of the site is, I don't know about it, so just stick to uploading when it's invited. I also used to participate heavily in oekaki culture which had a sort of divided community with a few people wanting work to be created using only the on-site art tools but the majority not minding uploads. I've always taken it as some sort of territoriality. A "one of us" sort of thing.

Well they could turn them off. Like what you could do is have an option to not have them on, because fewer people are going to want them turned off. Okay think of it like this... There's only one situation someone is going to want uploads turned off. That is if they say "I want contributors to my strip, but I do not want them free to create the artwork outside of the java app. I only want java app created art to be in this strip. That means if someone is willing to draw a picture for my strip in an art program or make it on paper and photograph it or scan it, no, I don't want any of that. I only want java app art." Now surely, that will happen sometimes. But it will be rare compared to people who say... "I just want a contribution. I'm fine with however it's made." Those are the people who benefit from having uploads turned on by default. Because they don't sent a message of "Only make art for my strip using the java app." by accidentally forgetting to turn on the upload option. It's just heading off a common error people make. And the people who insist on having people use the java app are not going to forget to switch uploads off because they're trying to make a point to start with. That point being "I am primarily interested in you using the java app, not in your art contribution."

`Peyo` It works, but if someone has uploads turned off, I don't know whether or not they want me to upload. Electra, for example, has extolled to me the virtues of site limitations (palette and time limits as existed on DC) so if she has earlier put up a strip with upload enabled, but then this one doesn't have it enabled, and gets passed to me, which it did, my assumption is she doesn't want it uploaded to. So I'm not going to presume. It would be like if I went and uploaded a pic to Sam's 30 second character portrait game. I COULD... But it wouldn't be very polite. Funny, yes, but not polite.

`Electra` Hiiii, well I blame `Peyo` , I keep trying to get him to enable uploads by default but you know, the spirit of the site demands maximum difficulty or errors or something so whatcha gonna do?

`Peyo` I don't think it's a must or even something very urgent but I can just see where in the future as the site grows it would be handy for keeping people happy. Also it would be an excellent countermeasure against any kind of spamming since it would literally give every user the ability to switch any spam off. Something to think about!

It would be really nice if there was a way to apply a filter to the feed. One such filter could be to only allow you to see feed items from users on your friends list! It would work on so many levels to make the experience of using the site better. As a Linux user I'd have special appreciation of such a thing. `Peyo`

Actually, I think "slow cooked vegetables" summarizes this site perfectly. At least in my case!

`Yoylecake420` Hey there, I wanted to say for the rules you'll want to pin those on the comics themselves. When you post comments under a comic you create, you'll see there's a little stickpin icon to the right. If you click that it will sticky a comment so it appears above the strip. You can use this to post rules or comments above a comic so people see it first before participating! You also have moderator tools on comics you create so if people break your rules you can handle it yourself by hiding their panels or comments. A couple other notes... Placeholders aren't a thing here, you get to choose how long a pass lasts when you pass a comic to someone. You can also use Friends Only mode or the team setting to filter who can participate. NSFW is it's own mode so if your strip isn't set to NSFW to start with nobody should be posting NSFW material in your strip anyway. Definitely put the rules for your strip as a pinned comment on the strip itself because there's almost no chance of people coordinating a forum post with a strip.

aaaa

`Peyo` I'm sure the title of this was enough to induce faking your own death, but it might be worth checking to see if there's an app or library (or maybe just a site, or even a sub-function of the wiki) that allows for the creation of a searchable help document for PChutney. Ideally I think having it as a tab on the site itself would be the best way to go. (Pressing an easily seen Help button is a good option when someone is lost) For example, if someone could go to a help page and type "upload" in a search and get back a section explaining uploads (Uploading is found under the FX tab in the drawing app blah blah blah full explanation, final panel size, everything) that would be ideal. I'd be willing to help write the help sections and I am sure others would be too, so pretty quickly any user would be able to find every topic and get a rundown on it. Good documents could put the site far and above any other site, and above a lot of software packages.

`chonka` You can also pin a post to have it appear above the main strip if you want to make sure users get instructions or info before participating! All you have to do is click the little thumbtack image in the upper right corner of a post to make it stick to the top of the page.

`Camel` Why, thank you!

AAAAAAAAAAAAAA

`Peyo` also one thing I wanted to point out, with something like Groups, let's say I'm a new user and I see the "Groups" header. How long does it take me to find something that clearly states what groups are, how to use them, or anything of the sort? That kind of info should be readily available because Groups is just an arbitrary term.

`Peyo` Since this is literally a comic site, wouldn't doing instructions in the form of comics and linking to them be the easiest thing? A comic could cover a specific task and you could have them linked via the wiki as well.

I really love this, great scene and atmosphere! Landscape scenes with dimension such as the road edge and the fence being between the viewer and the stormy ocean are rare. I love the way you did the gradation of the darkness up into the sky, and the breakers are really lovely. Great work! It's easy to imagine being there.

`Painovoima` I'm pretty sure while you were traveling, he studied the blade. BEWARE!

I'm glad to see such frequent mention of the Cannibalistic Humanoid Underground Dwellers, I feel they need more press!

"Do you expect me to talk?"

`Aluminimalism` Even better! Good idea

`Peyo` This is extremely minor and not something that's ever going to impact anything, and yet would be a good streamlining fix. I get logged out of the site quite frequently, without even realizing it, and always sort of arrive at the realization I was logged out by the fact I can't do things I could do when logged in. Looking to the upper right corner I see the Panel Chutney logo and go "Oh I'm logged out. Let me just log in then." This leads to me going for the logo where my avatar usually is, and clicking, because while I do often interact with my avatar, I normally never see the login button since it's not there when I am logged in, and only appears when I am not. So it's an alien control that only pops in when needed. Having it so clicking on the logo that replaces your avatar to take you to a login screen would be MUCH more intuitive and cut down on those moments of "What the heck?"

`Peyo` Seriously, tho. *heads to forum*

`Scones and Cones` Thank you too Coney, too sweet! I love these!

`Painovoima` I can be, in general, a bit of a jump scare, I think! Thank you Paino! (That was where in the original Bond intro people's face would transform into a flaming skull)